"On this one count, I will say shame to the Armenians for the following they had put in a press release in 2005:Before i get to the essence of Miguel's comment, let me first note that the Armenians et al have previously made the "Myth #1: Turkey is a reliable ally of the United States" claim.
Myths and realities about Turkey
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Myth #1: Turkey is a reliable ally of the United States
Reality: In March of 2003, when we needed Turkey the most, the Turkish government blocked U.S. efforts to open a northern front in the Iraq War.
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I think the Armenians were taking advantage of right-wing anger at Turkey to whip up support for their own cause. But the vast majority of Turks were against the Iraq War. Do the Armenians really think that Turkey would have served any good cause by ignoring its own people and allowing the US to launch its aggressive war from Turkish territory?
If that is the position of the Armenian lobby, then perhaps they are little better than the Turkish lobby."
For example, as i wrote here:
the same groups ("leading Armenian, Greek and Kurdish American organizations") took wolfowitz to task in a letter to GWB for saying that Turkey is "one of our strongest, most reliable and most self-reliant allies" - pointing out that " The record shows that during the Cold War, Turkey brushed aside U.S. interests on many occasions and deliberately gave substantial assistance to the Soviet military."Miguel's point is valid - but, to be clear, from my own perspective, I don't really care whether the armenians et al are as pure as snow, or as evil as hitler. I don't care if the armenians are 'right' and the turks are 'wrong', or vice versa. in fact, i don't even take a position one way or other (and miguel is correct to specify the 'turkish lobby' rather than anything that can be extrapolated to any broader population)
The issue for me is that there is a dangerous cabal (or a few), and as ive argued before, they are simply criminal enterprises, and are essentially supra-national. They are dangerous and need to be stopped - and i'll do whatever i can to stop them, and to stop the murder and destruction that they bring to our world.
The 'Turkish lobby', as far as i can tell, really has nothing to do with Turkey, other than (perhaps) the fact that Turkey happens to be a major funnel in the trading route. I don't even know if there are any Turks involved - it might just as easily be controlled by russian mafia, or israeli mafia, or (the only thing that we are sure of), the american mafia (which happens to be populated with american politicians, past and present).
Corruption on this scale knows no national boundaries.
To the extent that the Armenian lobby tried to appeal to Americans by highlighting that Turkey isnt the reliable friend that the Turkish lobby pretends, then who can begrudge them? And if the Armenians bribe Duke Cunningham in an attempt to level the playing field, again, who could blame them? I assume that the armenians aren't trying to be a beacon on the hill of democracy, and nor are they pretending to defend America's purported (but long dead) democracy/freedom. In the real world, where israel and turkey apparently own just about every politician in town (by their own account (see Rosen and the napkin story)), I can hardly criticise the Armenians for trying to do what they can to break the stronghold.
Our task is to shed light on one end of the transaction, and to try to put a stop to it.
2 comments:
Luke this is exactly the right way to think about this. As a former "brat" that lived in Turkey in my younger life for five years during the cold war, I can say that there are plenty of decent Turks as well as the bad ones there. Sure, we had "Turkish culture" teachers at our school to help spread a little of their propaganda to us, but most of the folks I knew then were pretty decent people, though I was pretty young then.
I do know of a boar hunting trip my Dad was on with the consulates of various countries there (including the Soviets and the Americans drinking vodka with each other AFTER their hunting activities) that turned into a weird show of force by Turkish military when they all went off their "planned" path of travel (which the Soviets had to give to Turkish officials prior to having any movements there). The Turks still then were very much our ally instead of the Soviets. I think the history back to the beginning of the century doesn't have the Turks trust those northeast of their country very much.
Just like we have a cabal in charge of our government and in various points of power that a majority of Americans don't support and if known what they do would want to put them in prison, there are probably a number of Turks in positions of influence over there that are part of this mafia, that later (hopefully) when this cabal here is brought down, Turks will also be thankful that Turkish members of this cabal are also taken down in the process, and perhaps then our two countries can have a constructive and healthy relationship again and they will be more welcome into the EU too.
When I discussed the Hastert problems with an Armenian friend who works with me, he's been pretty receptive about it and echoing it to his friends. But I have to remind him that the real problem is the bribery of our government, not just that they weren't able to vote on the genocide resolution then because of Turkish/Hastert corruption. He was acting more recently as if the recent bringing back the genocide resolution to the House floor "solved" the problem, which I told him was just a way to get Armenians off of Hastert's back, but doesn't solve the fundamental issues at stake here. For all we know there perhaps were competing bribes from Armenian lobbies both to Hastert and other congress members on that resolution too. We don't KNOW that like we have strong hints on the Turkish corruption from Sibel's testimony, but we shouldn't think that this issue is black and white, except for what appears to be might be the Speaker of the House taking bribes from foreign nationals to dictate our nation's business in congress.
The more we can remove any kind of bribery/special interest excessive influence over congress people that will be what restores the integrity and credibility of that body then. That will probably need things like public financing, etc., but that's a whole different topic that should have its own thread.
I'd heard from Americans who had family members serving in Turkey right up until the Iraq war that "finding WMD's were a done deal", but that he couldn't talk about the details. He later was very disappointed in what he heard and I think has different thoughts about the integrity of this administration. He also indicated later rumors that Wolfowitz, etc. were at one point in the process of COMPLETELY pulling out U.S. troops from American bases in Turkey after the war. That was about the same time there were the stories of us pulling out siginficantly from Saudi Arabia and other "uncooperative" countries over there too. News stories about folks like Wolfowitz only visiting folks at those bases and not taking ANY time to visit Turkish officials while in Turkey fueled that rumor, but later it seems that that position was pulled back from, since there still is a significant American presence there in bases there, albeit different without the northern fly zone planes, etc. in place. I'm guessing there's probably a buildup again on the Iranian border, but that would just be speculation on my part.
Though Sibel between the lines of what she says appears to be trying to also show similar feelings of not judging the Turks in general (like you and I do), you can tell she feels a bit "trapped" at times by appearing to be a "tool" of the Armenian lobby, which I don't think she wants to be, even if what she knows and talks about has served their ends at times and isn't beholden to be against the Armenians as many other Turks might be. I'd like to think that some day, if and when we can clear this mess up, she'll be revered as a hero both in this country and in her native Turkey for having helped clean houses in both places.
calipendence - some great thoughts here - sorry it has taken me a couple of days to get to it.
i totally agree with you agreeing with me :-)
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