Thursday, June 01, 2006

flee the country,

one (!) other thing about sibel - given that im re-reading old interviews - shoe doesnt only refer to the atc - but always tries to mention other groups - like the ataa - and 'hundred of chapters' and what not. i suspect that we also need to consider these other groups - although i dont know how. similarly, she often points to cultural groups - it's not obvious how hypothetical her hypotheticals are but take this for example:
"SE: You might have an organization supposed to be promoting the cultural affairs of a certain country within another country. Hypothetically, say, an Uzbek folklore society based in Germany. The stated purpose would be to hold folklore-related activities – and they might even do that – but the real activities taking place behind the scenes are criminal."
my suscpicion is that this isnt entirely hypothetical. compare with Russ Tice:
"RUSSELL TICE: If that was done and, you know, I use a big “if” here, and, remember, I can't tell you what I know of how N.S.A. does its business, but I can use the wiggle words like “if” and scenarios that don't incorporate specifics, but nonetheless"...
are there many Uzbek folklore societies based in Germany? did Jan Dickerson work for any of them? her husband? any family members?

another snippet:
"CD: Did Dickerson's protection of the suspects, and their larger infiltration of the American security apparatus, did these things have a deleterious effect on bureau investigations?

SE: As a result of their penetration, certain people who had been detained were released – people who had valuable information. And other targets of this investigation, key people, were allowed to flee the country, right up through January and February of 2002."
tightening the noose... - we should be able to identify these people

15 comments:

Don said...

From the Aug.15,2005 Deliso interview:
CD: Can you elaborate here on what countries you mean?

SE: It's interesting, in one of my interviews, they say "Turkish countries," but I believe they meant Turkic countries – that is, Turkey, Azerbaijan, and all the 'Stans, including Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan, and [non-Turkic countries like] Afghanistan and Pakistan. All of these countries play a big part in the sort of things I have been talking about.

CD: What, you mean drug-smuggling?

SE: Among other things. Yes, that is a major part of it. It's amazing that in this whole "war on terror" thing, no one ever talks about these issues. No one asks questions about these countries – questions like, "OK, how much of their GDP depends on drugs?"

CD: But of course, you're not implying…

SE: And then to compare that little survey with what countries we've been putting military bases in-


I concur that the dropped Uzbek reference isn't coincidental. I wonder if a look at any ostensibly non-political organizations from those countries would be informative.

Miguel said...

Luke,

The ATC is more of an "umbrella" organization, with very few Turkish people actually working on the ATC staff. I believe the foot soldiers are more likely to come from the ATAA and ATA- which is why Sibel mentions all their "chapters".

US military recently released list of all past and present Guantanomo detainees. Are there any Turkish names there?
Sibel has implied some of these Turks were detained- though I imagine that means mostly detained here in the US jail system, not at Gitmo.

noise said...

I don't mean to distract from the specific queries but reading all this stuff often brings me back to the big picture. Is Edmonds providing these details hoping investigative reporters pursue this? The thing is that a lot of this illegal activity is sanctioned by the government. Sure they don't tell Fox news what is going on. But they do make damn sure that investigations are not carried out.

Who benefitted from 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq? Big oil. MIC. Security. Government. Those are basically the same interests that are involved in the drug/weapons/terrorism/money laundering activities in the M.E./Asia.

As Edmonds has noted, this illegal activity benefits a small percentage of people and is detrimental to national security. The problem is that these people are the Establishment.

For example, look at Brewster Jennings. Say they finished their investigation of the Perle/Feith crowd and sent a complete report to headquarters. Would a guy like Goss (or Hayden) act on it? Mueller? Gonzales? Congress?

Miguel said...

"we should be able to identify these people"

Hopefully, we'll be able to pronounce their names when we do. My Turkish ain't so good.

calipendence said...

Turkish phonetics I can help with... I noticed even David Rose pronouncing Melek Can Dickerson in interviews as "Melek Kan Dickerson", when it is actually pronounced "Melek Jan Dickerson", so don't feel bad. Which is why I think Sibel at times in interviews as called her "Jan Dickerson" in a number of her interviews as though it were her "English name"...

BBC is just now reporting a coup attempt and an attempt to kill PM Erdogan.

lukery said...

don: "I wonder if a look at any ostensibly non-political organizations from those countries would be informative."
i'm sure they would be. i wonder what we could find.

miguel: "I believe the foot soldiers are more likely to come from the ATAA and ATA- which is why Sibel mentions all their "chapters"."
good point. i wonder what all the foot soldiers do. drug-running? are they literally a drug-distribution network?

lukery said...

miguel: "Are there any Turkish names there? Sibel has implied some of these Turks were detained- though I imagine that means mostly detained here in the US jail system, not at Gitmo."
they did send Kevin down to gitmo to translate the turkish stuff...
the pdf list of names is here
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2006/d20060515%20List.pdf
CELIK GOGUS, YUKSEL - born 1967
ELBANNA, ABDUL LATIF (jordanian, born in turkey, born 1952)
KARNAZ, MURAT born 1982
MART, MAHMUD NURI born 1971
SEN, IBRAHIM SHAFIR born 1980
UYAR, SALIH born 1981

"...implied some of these Turks were detained"
hmmm - dont remember that. any references?

lukery said...

calipendence - yuo mention rose's interviews, plural. i only know of the democracynow one - can you point to any others?

thnx

calipendence said...

Sorry, I meant to say something like "folks like" David Rose instead of many interviews. I was referring to the Democracy Now interview for that paticular instance. I think a few other interviews by other people might have made the same mistake, though I don't recall other specific ones.

Speaking of Turkish stuff, just got back from a nice Turkish meal for a long lunch at the Bird House Cafe here. That Iskender Doner kebab is always really tasty.

calipendence said...

I think the first and the third names look Turkish to me. The others could be.

lukery said...

mmmm - turkish food :-)

the names i've listed are given as turkish nationals

lukery said...

incidentally i cant immediately find another occasion where sibel uses the uzbek/germany reference

lukery said...

ah - miguel - i found the reference re detainees. this from sibel's statement to Kean et al:
"Melek Can Dickerson, with the assistance of her direct supervisor, forged signatures on top-secret documents related to certain [September 11-related] detainees."

very interesting. i wonder who they are, and i wonder if they are now undetained.

i wonder if dickerson/feghali had a system where they would put their own name on some 'possibly damning' stuff that they marked 'not relevant', and for the 'really damning' stuff, they forged someone elses signature (which can only be sibel or kevin)

Don said...

incidentally i cant immediately find another occasion where sibel uses the uzbek/germany reference

Maybe an index of her 'hypothetical' examples would be useful for examination. There may be other clues in there.

Could help with Larisa's stuff, too. Possibly even with side-by-side comparison (factoring in, of course, that they're looking at different aspects and factions).

lukery said...

don: "Maybe an index of her 'hypothetical' examples would be useful"
good point.

i've been meaning to put together a proper 'library' of sibel's stuff - i may even get to it one day(!)

miguel knows more about sibel than i do (kudos to him, shame on me!)

today i listened to two interviews of sibel that i dont think have been transcribed. i think i'll try to transcribe them. and then i (hope to) collect all of her statements on each topic and try to get a complete grip on what she is, and isnt, saying about each issue. i wanna be as informed about sibel as emptywheel is about every issue she has ever considered... she is so damned smart...