Tuesday, October 17, 2006

here's some katchup

* i just watched frontline's Dark Side about cheney, tenet et al. ouch!

* i've been spending most of my time today over at DU and DKOS trying to manage my sibel stuff over there. sorry for the light posting, and not keeping up with comments.

here's some katchup.

* Miguel writes:
Are the Grey Wolves another Frankenstein monster created by the U.S.? Why did the Grey Wolves try to knock off their fellow Communist-hater, Pope John Paul II? And are the Grey Wolves now stridently anti-U.S. and in support of the anti-U.S. film (I forgot the title) that is now popular in Turkey?
calipendence will hopefully give the answer about the title of the film.

re the Grey Wolves, as best as i understand it, they are a creature of (or were at least co-opted by) NATO, rather than the US, per se. They appear to have been one of the Gladio/'stay behind' operations that ran amok (see yesterday's post)

why did they try to kill JPII? - i'm guessing, either because they had gone rogue, or because they thought it was a sweet trigger for the clash of the civilizations.

The key, i think, to understanding sibel's claims is that there is no ideology involved - it's all about money (which coincidentally mirrors my own view of the world.) And if i'm not mistaken, Sibel points to what we know as 'NATO' as being one of the key corrupt vehicles. That is, people like Perle and Feith and Dickerson (and their international brethren) traffic drugs and weapons under the guise of NATO, and diplomatic immunity and so on.

* more from miguel (from ktm):
One question I have in all of this Israeli wheeling dealing is how high up the chain it goes in Israel. Are we talking about the Israeli military, or are we talking about the political level?
i don't specifically know - and i can only give my boiler-plate answer that i know drives many of you nuts (and for good reason.) my default presumption is that when you have corrupt systems, the edges become very blurry. i don't know the slightest thing about the israeli political/military system, but it's difficult to conceive of them as silos. i can only give some data points - if we think if a country like Burma/Myanmar, we presume that all of the state apparatus (apparati?) are all effectively controlled by the same crew - and they also happen to control both the arms and the drugs.

if we look at a country like Turkey, we know we see the same sort of thing with the Turkish DeepState.

if we look at a country like the US, we see much the same - the 'military' and the 'political' bleed into each other and become largely indistinguishable. consider the close relationship between cheney and rumsfeld, or the fact that the MIC owns most of congress. i could go on.

in fact, i will go on - it's wrong (IMUHO) to even think of these groups as, say 'israeli military' and 'israeli politics' - IMO, it's wrong to think of them even in terms of nations and national groups and national interests. AFAIK, these people are all 'traitors' to the extent that it's best to think of them in terms of international crime syndicates - the idea of national boundaries doesn't really occur to them. the only (main) currency is currency - the great leveller.

but i'm boring you - cos you've heard this all from me before. again and again.

* miguel, again from ktm:
"I have to weigh in with Noise on this one. While we should be somewhat grateful to Lautenburg, he, along with every other legislator, are still respecting the illegal retroactive classification by John Ashcroft. Lautenburg will not say "Sibel Edmonds" and "Turkey" in the same sentence, for example.

The question is: are Congressmen like Lautenburg respecting the Ashcroft gag order because they are afraid of being accused of leaking classified info- or are they using this illegal gag order as an excuse, because they'd rather not talk about a scandal that includes bribed Democratic Congressmen, Israel and Clinton appointee Marc Grossman?"
i don't know enough about this to comment - but thought it worthy of promotion to the (a?) front page.

for the record, i appreciate comments over at KTM - but because the blog is supposed to be about the movie, i'm a bit reluctant to front-page comments over there and engage in outta-my-arse speculation - in case i damage the 'sibel' brand and/or the brand of the movie - hence, i drag the comments over here.


starroute said...

For whatever it's worth, the Grey Wolves are also motivated by Pan-Turanism. (And no, ideology is not irrelevant. Ideology determines the channels in which greed runs.) See, for example, Wikipedia:

Turanism (Turkish: Turanc?l?k), or Pan-Turanism, is a political movement for the union of all Turanian peoples. It implies not merely the unity of all Turks (as in Pan-Turkism), but also the unity of Turks with Hungarians, Finns, Mongols, Tungus, Japanese, Estonians, Koreans[citation needed], and Ryukyuans.[citation needed] Therefore, Turanism is the collective inclusion of all Altaic peoples, and so can be understood as "pan-Altaicism".

Turanism forms an important aspect of the ideology of the Turkish Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), whose members are informally known as Grey Wolves. Grey Wolf (the mother wolf Asena) was the main symbol of the ancient Altaic people.

Turanism has played a role in inspiring the early leaders Chechen rebellion against Russian rule.The crrent Chechan leaders have taken up a more jihadist inspiration for their struggle.

Western support for Turanism started with the Carter Administration and is a policy still held by the Bush Administration.The goal of this policy first developed by the Carter Administration was a pro-insurgency program developed to aid and inspire internal uprisings within the Islamic communities within the Soviet Union. It is believed that the CIA covertly supported the growth of the Chechan separatist and jihadist movements during the years of the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan as an effective tool against the Soviets and later the Russians. This pro-Turanic policies of the Bush Administration have led to US support for Azerbajian, Uzbekistan,Tajikistan and Turkmenistan.The US has been a major contributor to oil projects in Azerbajian and other post-Soviet Turkic republics.

For more on Pan-Turanism and its significance, see here or here.

Most of us seem to think that if we can tell Sunnis from Shi'ites, we're doing pretty well when it comes to the Middle East -- but there's an enormous amount of stuff going on that's hardly even being mentioned. I sure don't know as much about Pan-Turanism as I ought to, but I do know that it's being used by Israel and the Neocons both as a way of containing the Arabs and also as a tool for trying to split off bits of Iran.

calipendence said...

The Turkish film you are speaking of is "Kurtlar Vadisi Irak" or translated, "Valley of the Wolves: Iraq", with Gary Busey and Billy Zane in it.

lukery said...

thnx c/p - i knew you'd have that one for me!

thnx starroute. fp'd